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	<title>Comments on: Coffee and Conformity</title>
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	<link>http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/2009/01/24/coffee-and-conformity/</link>
	<description>For what is your life? It is even a vapour...</description>
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		<title>By: paulmatzko</title>
		<link>http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/2009/01/24/coffee-and-conformity/comment-page-1/#comment-242</link>
		<dc:creator>paulmatzko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Feb 2009 18:04:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/?p=68#comment-242</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t gotten a chance to listen to Iannaccone&#039;s talk yet, but having &lt;a href=&quot;http://books.google.com/books?id=_U1uT942TY8C&amp;dq=under+the+cope+of+heaven&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;source=bn&amp;hl=en&amp;ei=h8uNSamgBpa5twfOxK2qCw&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book_result&amp;resnum=5&amp;ct=result&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;read&lt;/a&gt; Patricia Bonomi&#039;s &quot;Under the Cope of Heaven&quot; I am suspicious of your/his interpretation of American religious life prior to the end of establishment. 
&lt;blockquote&gt;There is a very pervasive impression, given weight by a number of learned authorities, that American religion was by the eighteenth century already in a state of decline. My own impressions point in a distinctly different direction. To me the same era presents itself as one of rising vitality in religious life, an era not of decline but the reverse - of proliferation and growth.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t gotten a chance to listen to Iannaccone&#8217;s talk yet, but having <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=_U1uT942TY8C&#038;dq=under+the+cope+of+heaven&#038;printsec=frontcover&#038;source=bn&#038;hl=en&#038;ei=h8uNSamgBpa5twfOxK2qCw&#038;sa=X&#038;oi=book_result&#038;resnum=5&#038;ct=result" rel="nofollow">read</a> Patricia Bonomi&#8217;s &#8220;Under the Cope of Heaven&#8221; I am suspicious of your/his interpretation of American religious life prior to the end of establishment. </p>
<blockquote><p>There is a very pervasive impression, given weight by a number of learned authorities, that American religion was by the eighteenth century already in a state of decline. My own impressions point in a distinctly different direction. To me the same era presents itself as one of rising vitality in religious life, an era not of decline but the reverse &#8211; of proliferation and growth.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Jeff H.</title>
		<link>http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/2009/01/24/coffee-and-conformity/comment-page-1/#comment-241</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 05:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/?p=68#comment-241</guid>
		<description>I appreciate the point of the Church/Starbucks video, but American churches, specifically protestant churches, are in fact run like businesses to a large extent. I (of course) think economics has a lot to say about this.

I think the difference in religious participation between America and Western Europe can, for example, be explained to a great extent by the different markets in place. As Adam Smith put it the Wealth of Nations long ago:

&quot;The teachers of [religion]..., in the same manner as other teachers, may either depend altogether for their subsistence upon the voluntary contributions of their hearers; or they may derive it from some other fund to which the law of their country many entitle them.... Their exertion, their zeal and industry, are likely to be much greater in the former situation than the latter. In this respect the teachers of new religions have always had a considerable advantage in attacking those ancient and established systems of which the clergy, reposing themselves upon their benefices, had neglected to keep up the fervour of the faith and devotion in the great body of the people....&quot;

An economist named Larry Iannaccone has done some fascinating work on this subject. He points out, inter alia, that religious participation in the US was quite low before the Constitution was ratified (and abolished state support for churches), and that the religions which then thrived were not the old subsidized strains but new denominations like the Baptists and Wesleyans. 

Great podcast with him here:

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2006/10/the_economics_o_7.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate the point of the Church/Starbucks video, but American churches, specifically protestant churches, are in fact run like businesses to a large extent. I (of course) think economics has a lot to say about this.</p>
<p>I think the difference in religious participation between America and Western Europe can, for example, be explained to a great extent by the different markets in place. As Adam Smith put it the Wealth of Nations long ago:</p>
<p>&#8220;The teachers of [religion]&#8230;, in the same manner as other teachers, may either depend altogether for their subsistence upon the voluntary contributions of their hearers; or they may derive it from some other fund to which the law of their country many entitle them&#8230;. Their exertion, their zeal and industry, are likely to be much greater in the former situation than the latter. In this respect the teachers of new religions have always had a considerable advantage in attacking those ancient and established systems of which the clergy, reposing themselves upon their benefices, had neglected to keep up the fervour of the faith and devotion in the great body of the people&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
<p>An economist named Larry Iannaccone has done some fascinating work on this subject. He points out, inter alia, that religious participation in the US was quite low before the Constitution was ratified (and abolished state support for churches), and that the religions which then thrived were not the old subsidized strains but new denominations like the Baptists and Wesleyans. </p>
<p>Great podcast with him here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2006/10/the_economics_o_7.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2006/10/the_economics_o_7.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: J.</title>
		<link>http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/2009/01/24/coffee-and-conformity/comment-page-1/#comment-240</link>
		<dc:creator>J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 16:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/?p=68#comment-240</guid>
		<description>You may find this obnoxious, but I&#039;m going to insert marginalia that may or may not be germaine to the debate. When considering Starbucks as the &quot;third place,&quot; I recalled another triad (an authoritarian one) I&#039;d seen diagrammed on chalkboards: family, church, civil government. Although insufficient parallels, both triads loosely dilineate humankind&#039;s (idealized) allegiance. 

Recently, I found two references to the loose cultural parallel many see between the church&#039;s role and Starbuck&#039;s. The film &quot;What if Starbucks Marketed Like a Church?&quot; parabolically explores the antithetical, marketing parallel between these two sources of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7_dZTrjw9I&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;satisfaction&lt;/a&gt;. Ironic in its juxtaposition, an NPR essay delves into the comlimentary, if discomforting, roles these two entities represent to a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1524197&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;skeptical observer&lt;/a&gt;. Needless to say, approach each with wide-eyed discernment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You may find this obnoxious, but I&#8217;m going to insert marginalia that may or may not be germaine to the debate. When considering Starbucks as the &#8220;third place,&#8221; I recalled another triad (an authoritarian one) I&#8217;d seen diagrammed on chalkboards: family, church, civil government. Although insufficient parallels, both triads loosely dilineate humankind&#8217;s (idealized) allegiance. </p>
<p>Recently, I found two references to the loose cultural parallel many see between the church&#8217;s role and Starbuck&#8217;s. The film &#8220;What if Starbucks Marketed Like a Church?&#8221; parabolically explores the antithetical, marketing parallel between these two sources of <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7_dZTrjw9I" rel="nofollow">satisfaction</a>. Ironic in its juxtaposition, an NPR essay delves into the comlimentary, if discomforting, roles these two entities represent to a <a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1524197" rel="nofollow">skeptical observer</a>. Needless to say, approach each with wide-eyed discernment.</p>
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		<title>By: paulmatzko</title>
		<link>http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/2009/01/24/coffee-and-conformity/comment-page-1/#comment-239</link>
		<dc:creator>paulmatzko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:43:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/?p=68#comment-239</guid>
		<description>I talked to two Starbucks employees yesterday and both mentioned that Starbucks corporate trains their staff to think of Starbucks as the &quot;Third Place&quot;: home, work, Starbucks. Ideally their customers will organize their lives around these three communities. Now I have no real objection to the idea of Starbucks as a community. Indeed, coffeehouses once acted as intellectual conduits (I&#039;m thinking Samuel Johnson, Boswell, etc).
 
But I&#039;m bothered by the fact that my decision-making is often unconsciously influenced. I&#039;d like to think that I carefully weigh the evidence and my options before deciding to do something, whether that action is to choose a graduate school or pick a brand of coffee. Of course intellectually I know that this ideal is unrealistic, but I&#039;m idealistic enough that I&#039;m somewhat perturbed when I find out how little concious choice I really exercise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I talked to two Starbucks employees yesterday and both mentioned that Starbucks corporate trains their staff to think of Starbucks as the &#8220;Third Place&#8221;: home, work, Starbucks. Ideally their customers will organize their lives around these three communities. Now I have no real objection to the idea of Starbucks as a community. Indeed, coffeehouses once acted as intellectual conduits (I&#8217;m thinking Samuel Johnson, Boswell, etc).</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m bothered by the fact that my decision-making is often unconsciously influenced. I&#8217;d like to think that I carefully weigh the evidence and my options before deciding to do something, whether that action is to choose a graduate school or pick a brand of coffee. Of course intellectually I know that this ideal is unrealistic, but I&#8217;m idealistic enough that I&#8217;m somewhat perturbed when I find out how little concious choice I really exercise.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. M</title>
		<link>http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/2009/01/24/coffee-and-conformity/comment-page-1/#comment-238</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:53:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/?p=68#comment-238</guid>
		<description>BTW Carl McIntire spelled his name with an &quot;i&quot;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_McIntire</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW Carl McIntire spelled his name with an &#8220;i&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_McIntire" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_McIntire</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jeff H.</title>
		<link>http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/2009/01/24/coffee-and-conformity/comment-page-1/#comment-237</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 07:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/?p=68#comment-237</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re being a bit too credulous. First, what Simon calls expressiveness, and what economists call &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics)&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;signaling,&lt;/a&gt; is a strong driver of many if not most decisions. Second, Starbucks has always been explicitly about extending coffee culture, not just selling brewed concoctions. Third, though I do think consumers self-deceive about why they buy certain things, it&#039;s wrong to characterize them in this case as being &quot;duped.&quot; Consumers are in the best position to judge which decision will satisfy them the most, and even if they never acknowledge that they drink Starbuck&#039;s because it signals affiliation and identity and not because of the rich arabica beans, I don&#039;t see any tragedy, just normal human foibles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re being a bit too credulous. First, what Simon calls expressiveness, and what economists call <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics)" rel="nofollow">signaling,</a> is a strong driver of many if not most decisions. Second, Starbucks has always been explicitly about extending coffee culture, not just selling brewed concoctions. Third, though I do think consumers self-deceive about why they buy certain things, it&#8217;s wrong to characterize them in this case as being &#8220;duped.&#8221; Consumers are in the best position to judge which decision will satisfy them the most, and even if they never acknowledge that they drink Starbuck&#8217;s because it signals affiliation and identity and not because of the rich arabica beans, I don&#8217;t see any tragedy, just normal human foibles.</p>
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		<title>By: paulmatzko</title>
		<link>http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/2009/01/24/coffee-and-conformity/comment-page-1/#comment-236</link>
		<dc:creator>paulmatzko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Jan 2009 04:53:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/?p=68#comment-236</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m in a research seminar with David Farber. The goal is to produce a publishable article on a topic in the 1960s-80s; I&#039;m considering doing something on Carl McIntyre and political culture. I&#039;ve also enrolled in Bryant Simon&#039;s Intro course.

This may be stretching the verse too far out of context, but I do wonder how our often unthinking submission to marketing fits with the Biblical command to be both in the world but not of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m in a research seminar with David Farber. The goal is to produce a publishable article on a topic in the 1960s-80s; I&#8217;m considering doing something on Carl McIntyre and political culture. I&#8217;ve also enrolled in Bryant Simon&#8217;s Intro course.</p>
<p>This may be stretching the verse too far out of context, but I do wonder how our often unthinking submission to marketing fits with the Biblical command to be both in the world but not of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Austin</title>
		<link>http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/2009/01/24/coffee-and-conformity/comment-page-1/#comment-235</link>
		<dc:creator>Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/?p=68#comment-235</guid>
		<description>That was interesting.  My guess is that the extent to which most of us are unconsciously influenced by marketing messages is much greater than we begin to imagine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was interesting.  My guess is that the extent to which most of us are unconsciously influenced by marketing messages is much greater than we begin to imagine.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr. M</title>
		<link>http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/2009/01/24/coffee-and-conformity/comment-page-1/#comment-233</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 15:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paulmatzko.edublogs.org/?p=68#comment-233</guid>
		<description>So what courses did you decide to take?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what courses did you decide to take?</p>
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